Trt - Testerone Undecanoate

[Ami]

Anyone else that can help please?
Posted this on another forum too as didn't get any replies on previous issue.

Hi All,

Further to my last post, I've now seen the urologist. He gave me a blood test, ultrasound and a prostate exam which I was not expecting! Stated that my bladder was holding some urine so not emptying fully.
Had the ultrasound and he said it's fine and you have emptied fully,
Prostate exam showed as a little enlarged but smooth and nothing to worry about.

Anyway I have an appointment soon him again.
I asked if the tests woukd include certain areas I.e. t3 ad t4 etc... he said they wouldn't do that... asked about a few other areas, Cortisol and estrogen etc and he said don't need to for now...
The areas to be tested are as below:

U&E with Creatnine
TFT (TSH & FT4)
FSH & LH
Test
Prolactin

I've had my shbg tested previously and tests as shown before, but was a little confused why he wouldn't test for as much as poss right now?

I'm due to see a respiratory consultant soon as well for a CT scan as what they thought was asthma/copd has finally turned out to be neither after waiting for a test for 2 years, doc said showing a restrictive pattern and that's it, so shouldn't have been taking inhalers really, hopefully get to the bottom of that too soon .

Anyway back to urologist, he started (if I needed it after blood test results come in), going on about gels and cream and I said not interested in any of them... and then he disclosed to me that injections were better (which I already knew from the feedback and content ive read on here).

I asked if it would be test e or sustanon or what and how often?

Surprisingly, he said it would be most likely test undecanoate, but then said and an injection every three months, which I believe should be every 2 months?

Should I ask for a loading period here?
More frequent injections?
Should I be asking how if he's going to check if it's secondary hypogonadism? And if the pituary is firing/sending messages to the testes or is that what lh and fsh will check?
Any other additional questions?
Should I be asking to take something for control of estrogen?

Im not that fond of needles, so every 3 months sounds ok and it will be on the NHS but im just worried as heard Nebido/test undecanoate not that good and not good to have so infrequently, plus should i be running anything alongside it?

Please let me know lads and thanks?

 

[danny187]

Prescribing guidelines for Nebido is 10-14 weeks but starting off is

Week 1 - 4ml
Week 6 - 4ml (booster to achieve stable levels faster
Week 12 -14 - 4ml

Then it would be blood tests through all the peaks and troughs to determine dosing long term, in that 10-14 week window

Other options is Testogel daily, Sustanon every 3-4 weeks.

it's a long haul.

 

[Ami]

Prescribing guidelines for Nebido is 10-14 weeks but starting off is

Week 1 - 4ml
Week 6 - 4ml (booster to achieve stable levels faster
Week 12 -14 - 4ml

Then it would be blood tests through all the peaks and troughs to determine dosing long term, in that 10-14 week window

Other options is Testogel daily, Sustanon every 3-4 weeks.

it's a long haul.

Thanks when you state sust every 3-4 weeks is this nothing to do with the testogel?

4ml seems a lot for a week? I can see this just initially but still high, what can be done counter too high levels of test? So then 4ml for the 2 wk period between wk 12-14?
What about from wk 6 to 12?
Is it best to run anything alongside this?
Anything to counter estrogen?
What is your personal opinion of nebido, TU please?

Thanks for any advice

 

[Grimnir]

You’re reading it wrong, sust every 3 to 4 wks or testogel daily.
The 4ml is not just for a wk, it’s for your first injection that will last you till wk 6 when you’ll have another 4ml that will last you till wk 12 or 14 depending on your bloods.
4ml of test undec at 250mg per ml, giving you a gram of test per injection.
bloods will determine if you need anything to counter oestrogen.

 

[Ami]

OK thank you that's interesting, I've been told it's usually sust every 10 days? What would be the dose if every 3-4 wk please?
OK I've heard its bad to have a high dose of test (250mg in one go) due to conversion to estr issues.
Have you had test undecanoate and what's your opinion of it please if so?
Would you rather take something else or?
Thanks again

 

[Grimnir]

I’m just clarifying what I think Danny was saying. I don’t know all protocols for sust and have only heard about 250mg every 10 days or every 14 days myself but someone more knowledgeable may clarify that.
Because of the undecanoate ester being so long conversion to oestrogen will not be as harsh as other shorter esters. This is just my thinking on the matter and is not definite.

 

[Ami]

OK so further to my last post, i have seen the urologist and these are my results attached. Can anyone look at these and tell me what they think please… is there anything wrong with these results?

Urologist is saying same as the Dr. I’m borderline low test.
So he’s advised he wants me to go on to testogel for a month and see if that helps, if it does and helps my symptoms, then he will prescribe test undecanoate 1 x 3 month (which obviously ill try push for 1 x 2 month but not sure if he’ll go for it).
Asked about sustanon, he says that not available and its only test undecanoate that is… plus side its on the NHS so i’m guessing its just a payment for prescription.

Anyone tried the testogel? Pros and cons etc? Is this twice x day?
Don’t need to rub on balls apparently.

Im based in UK so not sure if there are any alternative options, or if this urologist is just playing it safe etc?

Please let us know what u think?
Let me know if I should post this anywhere else to get more responses.
Cheers lads

 

[danny187]

Your LH and FSH is not suppressed or shutdown. Test is low end of normal.

I wouldn't take TRT based on them results.

If you have come off a steroid cycle in past, or recent months then keep off any TRT or AAS and adjust lifestyle and retest hormones in 6 months.

If you choose TRT it will be for life, think about that.

As for testogel, doses vary. Endocrine will normally start at 1 sachet then bloods to see see peaks and troughs, then dose adjust based on results/ feel.

But it's all individual / subjective so do what you feels best, but remember when asking on a bodybuilding forum about TRT normally opinions differ to actual prescribing guidelines for medicine in NHS setting.

After a while, you just get yearly bloods for PSA, FBC, Testosterone (pointless doing this unless at a specific time after application of dose) Lipids, Liver function and Urea.

 

[Ami]

Thanks Danny, I was thinking the same, I may just change my lifestyle a little first as not been sleeping well or even looked in the direction of a gym in years! So thinking about eating right, sleeping better and starting gym and then re-test in 3 months?

I did a 2 x AAS course years ago, only 6 weeks long and not much weekly tbf , 1 x prob 10+ years ago which did include deca and sust but it wasn't a long course, and then just a course of test after, didn't do pct properly as just wasnt aware of how to do it, yes I know very stupid.

Yes, I'm a little concerned that if start on gels and natural test production stops (whatever low amount I have) or goes even lower than I'm going to have to take gels/injections for life. I am thinking of asking dr to just delay this for now and the option for gels/injections can be there for me when i want to try it after exhausting any changes?

But have been told my another forum that something is stopping my natural test production, and it's not likely lifestyle change will help much? The best thing for this woukd be to try replace the test but I think it's best to exhaust all avenues before starting any TRT, Even if doesnt help, its best to try before needing something for life...

this problem could be metabolic syndrome? but I don't have diabetes, no high blood pressure or blood sugars are fine? Yes, I'm overweight and carry a lot of abdominal fat from the last few years...

Clomid is not likely to help as nothing wrong with LH production.

Please let me know what you think, cheers, much appreciated

 

[danny187]

Thanks Danny, I was thinking the same, I may just change my lifestyle a little first as not been sleeping well or even looked in the direction of a gym in years! So thinking about eating right, sleeping better and starting gym and then re-test in 3 months?

I did a 2 x AAS course years ago, only 6 weeks long and not much weekly tbf , 1 x prob 10+ years ago which did include deca and sust but it wasn't a long course, and then just a course of test after, didn't do pct properly as just wasnt aware of how to do it, yes I know very stupid.

Yes, I'm a little concerned that if start on gels and natural test production stops (whatever low amount I have) or goes even lower than I'm going to have to take gels/injections for life. I am thinking of asking dr to just delay this for now and the option for gels/injections can be there for me when i want to try it after exhausting any changes?

But have been told my another forum that something is stopping my natural test production, and it's not likely lifestyle change will help much? The best thing for this woukd be to try replace the test but I think it's best to exhaust all avenues before starting any TRT, Even if doesnt help, its best to try before needing something for life...

this problem could be metabolic syndrome? but I don't have diabetes, no high blood pressure or blood sugars are fine? Yes, I'm overweight and carry a lot of abdominal fat from the last few years...

Clomid is not likely to help as nothing wrong with LH production.

Please let me know what you think, cheers, much appreciated

First what is the reason you got referred? i.e was it fatigue? pains? or general feel like shit.

Also can I ask weight/height/age?

At one stage around 2016-2017 I gave myself non alcoholic fatty liver disease, I had become sedentary i.e less than 3000-4000 steps a day, I didn't train for years really, had such a bad relationship with food and binge and weight went above 17.5 stone at 5 foot 9, in this time I ended up having scans on chest for TB (due to excessive sweating), bad liver from bad foods and high triglycerides and 3 liver values out of range, also gave myself permanent gyno in this time from the lifestyle not aas as didn't touch for many years.

I don't have that above now, just using as an example of poor health due to poor choices.

I felt super shit, as I everything I was doing was super shit.

So my first advice depending on your weight and height would be

1. lose 10% of your bodyweight to start with
2. improve sleep hygiene, this is key
3. If sedentary then increase movement, walking is great.
4. You mention starting gym, but remember something sustainable and enjoyable.

 

[Ami]

First what is the reason you got referred? i.e was it fatigue? pains? or general feel like shit.

Also can I ask weight/height/age?

At one stage around 2016-2017 I gave myself non alcoholic fatty liver disease, I had become sedentary i.e less than 3000-4000 steps a day, I didn't train for years really, had such a bad relationship with food and binge and weight went above 17.5 stone at 5 foot 9, in this time I ended up having scans on chest for TB (due to excessive sweating), bad liver from bad foods and high triglycerides and 3 liver values out of range, also gave myself permanent gyno in this time from the lifestyle not aas as didn't touch for many years.

I don't have that above now, just using as an example of poor health due to poor choices.

I felt super shit, as I everything I was doing was super shit.

So my first advice depending on your weight and height would be

1. lose 10% of your bodyweight to start with
2. improve sleep hygiene, this is key
3. If sedentary then increase movement, walking is great.
4. You mention starting gym, but remember something sustainable and enjoyable.

Hi Danny,

Apologies in the delay getting back to you about the above.

Yes, I'm 13.7 stone, 5'9 and 42 years old this month.

Yes, your previous situation sounds a lot like mine, I was eating a lot of rubbish to be honest, not doing anything at all really and working from home. I think I may have had/ have NAFL like you stated too due to the above. Yes, I feel like I've got gyno with breasts sort of and just a lot of abdo fat.

I've now joined a gym and been going to the gym for a few visits now, firstly just 1 x wk (full body workout) and just to ease into it, and now recently 2 x weekly chest, back triceps on wed n legs shoulders biceps traps on friday, (going to expand to 3 x weekly soon and spread out more when work permits - monday chest triceps, wed - back n biceps, friday - legs shoulders, traps) added with some cardio before and after just to warm up and warm down.

Definitely been putting some muscle on and got stronger, and got better and doing some cardio, was doing fine, been getting a little more sleep where possible too, but this can be an issue sometimes (may be related to low T?).
Have been taking a test supplement just tablets 2 x daily (had real good reviews, contains tribulis n few other boosting elements), and a protein shake sometimes to see if that helps at all, which i feel it has a bit. I thought i'd come off the test supplement as sometimes stomach a bit dicky etc.
Everything been going fine apart from tiredness/aching at times and maybe a little longer for recovery.
However, in the last week i've noticed that my forearms have been really aching, n pains in bones really knees/elbows, recovery taking longer this week, (some irritatability is there and mood swings, low libido ed issues all still present as before, did start feeling a little spike in being horny which may have due to test supplement but didnt want to rely on this or maybe just due to training, ive come off to see if still feel like it without so will know soon) i've not trained this week as was away on hols but plan to start again next week...
Ive also tried doing some abs workout with planks and sit ups after (supersetting) but not seeing much difference in belly fat, (i know this is one of the main symptoms of low test) everywhere else seems to be firmimg up a little bit by bit.

but im thinking shall i get a blood panel done now independently by BMH or something similar (if these are accurate? I think its £100 to see full panel - or any recommendationswhich to use in UK) or i have testogel waiting to start? Is it best to do something now or just push it more... (wait till stop aching obviously)?

Whats your thoughts please let me know, cheers and thank you

 

[danny187]

1. You're 42 so some level of aches is normal, but I get what you're saying.
2. No amount of sit ups / planks will effect your belly fat
3. to lose fat you need be in a calorie deficit

I have no recommendations for any private blood tests, as haven't used any in years.

Just remember if you go TRT route via NHS it will be for life, you will also need monitor bloods yearly for generics like FBC, liver, kidneys, lipids and PSA (prostate).

 

[spearman]

Used medichecks for blood tests.

see where you me levels are then do from there.

You have a few options

 

[Ami]

1. You're 42 so some level of aches is normal, but I get what you're saying.
2. No amount of sit ups / planks will effect your belly fat
3. to lose fat you need be in a calorie deficit

I have no recommendations for any private blood tests, as haven't used any in years.

Just remember if you go TRT route via NHS it will be for life, you will also need monitor bloods yearly for generics like FBC, liver, kidneys, lipids and PSA (prostate).

Thank you Danny, yes im a little apprehensive about getting on trt as like you say will be for life.

One thing I'm noticing though, is my forearms aching badly, when usually from gym years ago I'd be fine and would repair quicker.

I've been advised to give gym a break for a week and then start afresh?? What do you think or could I be making my test worse by training as I am? Like I said I think I need a blood test?

OK I agree, the belly fat I'd not hoimg unless I get into a calorie deficit state, what are the best excercises to reduce fat once in this though, I'm eating brown rice mainly with chicken n salad and trying to get a lean protein shake too as the one I've had is just normal, so that won't help things...

 

[Ami]

Used medichecks for blood tests.

see where you me levels are then do from there.

You have a few options

Thanks spearman,

What's me levels? As stated above to Danny, one thing I'm noticing though, is my forearms aching badly, when usually from gym years ago I'd be fine and would repair much quicker.

I've been advised to give gym a break for a week and then start afresh?? What do you think or could I be making my test worse by training as I am? Like I said I think I need a blood test?

I am putting muscle on but can't help feeling shouldn't be aching the way I am most of time?